Welcome back to the Monday Morning Church podcast. Today, we’ve got Lane Sebring on the show, coming to us from One Life Church, with two locations, soon to be three, in the Knoxville, Tennessee area. Great to have you on today, Lane.

Great to be on, thanks Courtney.


So Lane, you are the Executive Director there at One Life. How did you come into your position there?

Yeah, so One Life church started nine years ago, it will be nine years in September and at the time when it started, I was working at a church just outside of Washington, DC, in a Northern Virginia DC suburb. And I was actually at that church for 10 years. And so back in 2007, I just started working there and I met th guy who is now the pastor at One Life, Rodney Arnold. I met him through a mutual friend back in 2007, and he was all about “going to plant a church in Knoxville. It’s going to be called One Life.”

And so I just kind of watched what they did here from a distance and only knew him through a mutual friend, but they launched in 2009, and it was really exciting to watch what God was doing in the church, it grew very quickly, and they just did a lot of things really well. And I always liked their vibe. And so about a year ago, almost a year ago now, Rodney was looking for Executive Director to come on, to build out systems, to lead the staff, to run the operations of the church and to really set the church up for future growth and more campuses and things like that, so he reached out to me and we started talking, and I was very attracted to the possibility of working for a church like this that was doing some of the things that I wanted to do and wanted to be in and around and learn how to do. And so my wife, she was seven months pregnant. We have a two year old and a four month old, and so she was pregnant and we’d been at that church for 10 years. And she grew up in the DC area, and we packed up our bags and sold our house and left our job, moved to Knoxville and started working on One Life in July of 2017. And then we had our baby, and we bought house, and got in this job. And so the last six months that I’ve been here, as of when we’re recording this, it’s been six months. It’s been an awesome journey of learning the culture, and learning what the history of the church, what it’s about, how the staff are structured and what needs to improved and what we need to set up for future growth. And so I can talk more about what we’re doing later, but that’s what brought me on it and got me here.


In the last year, you’ve had a ton of movement in your personal life, and you’re also coming into a church that is very much on the move. You are about to start a third campus. So are you a guy who likes to keep busy, I’m assuming?

Yes. Yeah, I do, obviously, you got to have balance and you got to have rest and things like that. But yeah, it’s energizing. There are times when we’ve been pretty exhausted, but you get through it and you just keep on going. But for me, it’s all about knowing that we’re heading in a really good place and we have a clear vision and a crystal clear way, you know, path to get there. Then it’s just a matter of what has to happen, between now and then, or what are the details that need to be worked out. And that’s very energizing, not every bit of it, but the idea of us reaching more people for Christ. It’s a very motivating idea for me and we love it. My wife and I, we love the church, the community. I think one of the things that we as Executive Pastors and Executive Directors, sometimes we’ll get so caught up in the weeds and the business of running the operation that sometimes we forget, you know, our family goes to this church. So whether it’s your husband who goes to church or your wife who goes the church, or your kids. It’s their church, it’s their community, it’s their home. And so we’ve really works hard to get in a home group right away, which is our small group model, home groups, and to be serving and to be in community with people. And it’s been great. So, so far I feel very supported and loved and able to do a lot and do the work we love, and with people that we love.


So tell me a little bit about when you came on at the church in July, what position was the church in and were they already planning on starting the third campus and how do your campuses operate? Do you have a sermon that goes out to all different campuses or do they each have their own campus pastors? Break it down a little bit.

Yeah, absolutely. So, the way we are set up, each campus is resourced from our central team, and so we have a central team that (we got this language from Leadership Network), is that central is responsible for plans and standards, and campuses are responsible for execution and people. Not executing people, but execution and people (laughs).

So at Central, we set the plan. So whether it’s how we’re going to do first impressions, how we’re going to do home groups, how we’re going to do baptisms, how we’re going to take people through our ‘Four Steps’,’ which I can get into that if you want me to, it’s kind of our discipleship model, whatever it is, that standard and that plan and that system is built from central so that our campus staff and those volunteers are freed up to execute the plan and not have to figure out what it is. So that’s how it works behind the scenes. But in terms of what you see, if you come to any of our One Life Church campuses on a Sunday morning, the sermon is going to be live in one of our locations and live on video at the other locations. The services are all the exact same. So our music and production is planned centrally. And so if you’re at our East Campus and for one of the earlier services and you drive over to the North Campus, you’re going to hear the exact same songs in the exact same order.

And not every multi-size does it this way. But for us, what it does is it ensures that you have the exact same experience at any location you go to, and we’re taking you on the same journey, and that’s very important to us. So we use the language of a journey and a journey moment, and where we’re trying to get you in a service. And so for us, it’s really important that we’re walking through the same steps together at each location week to week and so that’s the way we do it. It’s not the only way, it may not be the right way, but it’s just the way we do it. So our third campus, we’ll follow that same pattern once we launch it, and I think, was the other question you asked about when I came on in July, I can’t remember what the question was there. I just want to make sure I answered both of those.


You mentioned that ‘Four Steps’ of Discipleship’ model, and that’s something that a lot of Executive Pastors mention, trying to kind of crack that code of discipleship and discipling volunteers and everything. So what are your ‘Four Steps’?

Okay, so we kind of borrowed the language from Andy Stanley. In his book ‘Seven Practices of Effective Ministry’, he talks about saying steps, not programs. So we totally get that. We want to take people through steps, not necessarily stick them in programs. And so our ‘Four Steps’ are experience Jesus, give Jesus my best, don’t do life alone, and multiply like Jesus. And so each one of those ‘Four Steps’ involves something in your journey.

So experience Jesus is if you don’t know anything about faith, we’re going to put you through Starting Point, which is a class that introduces people to Christianity and maybe reintroduces them to faith, it’s going to be giving your life to Jesus. It’s going to be baptism, it’s going to be experiencing and discovering who Jesus is. Then, ‘Giving Jesus My Best.’ So the next step is we want to be volunteering. We have on ramps all over the organization for you to be involved, serving, and then we don’t want you doing life alone. So that’s home groups, short term groups. We want people to be doing life together. And then our fourth step is ‘Multiply Like Jesus.’

So the model we have is one of ‘multiplication is the engine that runs our church.’ So what I mean by that is, if you come to our church on a Sunday, you’re going to see what looks like your typical attractional model, you’re going to see a lot of big lights. You going to see to get loud music and it’s going to be casual, and there’s going to be coffee and all the trappings of an attractional model. But what runs that, the engine underneath that is a multiplication strategy, which is most churches, I don’t throw stones at any church, but I’m just saying, churches typically, when they think discipleship, they think learning. They think that the end result is that the person who’s sitting in the pew or the seat needs to come to this class. And at this class, we’re going to learn more about The Bible. And if they learn more about The Bible and that’s going to be great. So they can go learn more about The Bible. And the discipleship model can often terminate on the person rather than the goal being that person doing something with their faith. And so what we say is, we love for you to learn, discover, grow, search the scriptures, feed and be fed, but here’s the thing: if it terminates on you, then we’ve missed it.

So our goal isn’t to get people baptized, to get them to follow Jesus, to get them to serve. The ultimate goal is for each person to multiply, because we know that, you can come to church and do all those things, and if it ends with you, then we really haven’t made a difference and we want to take our city. Our not take it from any other church, but we want to take our city for Jesus. We want people who don’t know Jesus to meet Him and know Him, fall in love with Him. And we know that only happens if the people we have aren’t letting it terminate on them. So multiplying is very important that we have a system that we call Accelerate. It’s invite-only where we look at the people in our church that we say, these people really are that they’re doing it. We just want to give them the resources and tools to be able to put some feet to this. And so we do run people through a program. We call it Celebrate, to kind of do that step… so that was kind of a lot. Those are the ‘Four Steps’ and the really, really important one we really stress is the multiplying piece. And we model that as a church because we plant churches, we plant campuses. And so as a church, we are very multiplication-oriented, even organizationally. So everything is about: it doesn’t terminate on us and it doesn’t terminate on any person. It has to multiply. And if it’s not multiplying, then we’ve got to fix the system because the system’s broken.


Now, I hear you talk about systems, and when I hear anybody talk about multiplying, I immediately think of, you have to have a model that’s scalable, obviously. So how do you go about creating a system that supports that multiplication?

Well, I love my tools. We utilize a lot of tools because what I have found is that, a system is only as good as it’s followed, and a lot of times a system can be…like, here’s an example. Let’s say that we’re on staff together and we decide, okay, the way we do baptism stinks, it’s inefficient. People don’t know where they supposed to be and when, we don’t have a good process for intake. So let’s write it all down. Let’s write down, here’s what’s step one. Step two. Step three. Well, we can write it down ‘til we’re blue in the face and it can be in a file somewhere or can be on a Google Drive. And we say, yeah, we have a system for baptism. But if we don’t follow it, it doesn’t matter. But the problem is, by the time you get to a certain size and scale as a church, you have a hundred systems, or you have two hundred. There’s endless amount of systems.

And so what I try to do is, and this is something that we’re working through right now, we’re certainly not perfect at it, but this is one of the things we’ve been looking at is, how do we automate as many things as we can so that it takes the guesswork out so that people…it’s not relying on a person, it’s relying on the system. So if it’s kids ministry, and there’s a person who confirmed that they’re going to come on Planning Center, but they don’t show up on Sunday morning, we have a system that absorbs that blow and we don’t miss a beat, so it doesn’t down to a person missing. It comes down to the system.

And so to scale, the way we have to do that is, right now what we’re looking at is the complexity of moving from two of a thing to three of a thing. So there’s a rule that Craig Rochelle in his podcast, which I highly recommended to your listeners. There’s a podcast called the Craig Groeschel Leadership Podcast, where he talked about the rule of three-and-ten. And the rule of three-and-ten says that when you move from two of a thing to three, the level of complexity exponentially increases, and then it does again, when you move from nine of thing to ten. So for example, if you have two kids and you go to three kids, the level of complexity is exponentially higher, but then it’s pretty much the same kids three through nine, and then at 10, it gets really complicated again.

So with us, being the two campus church moving to a three, we just know that we’re coming against a season where our systems are going to have to support three things instead of two, which means that right now we have been able to, if there’s not a good system, duplicate our efforts. So we’re doing something for our North Campus, which is in Powell, then we could just duplicate that and do it at the East. The problem is, if you have three on, you got to go from duplicate in the multiplying and multiple is much more complicated. And so the systems have to be there.

The way we’re working this out is building a more robust central team and more clearly defining: what are the roles, and who does them, so that the campuses aren’t asking, well, what do I do? How do I do baptisms? How do I do first impressions? What’s the plan for home groups? How do we do, what we call Serve the City in July of every year where we really love in our cities. They don’t have to think about what or even how they just have, they just do, so that frees them up on the campus level to be in their community, to be with people, to do the work that it takes to actually grow a campus, and not just be running around stressed and worried that it’s not going to come together. So really, from a central level and my job and my team, our number one goal right now is to set us up to scale. So that question, I’m glad you asked that because it’s something that we as a leadership team, we’ve been talking through a lot. Going from two to three. Because here’s the thing: if we go from two to three and we can get through the bumps and bruises of going from two to three, then we can go from three to four to five to six to eight to nine, and then we’ll have this conversation again at campus number 10. But for now, systems are what scale. There’s no person that can break through a barrier systems do. And it’s automated and as clear as they can be, the better.


Okay now you’re talking about systems and automation, and you all are KiSSFLOW users. And so I want to hear how that application has fit in and help support the scaling that you guys are seeking to do.

So what we have done so far, and we’ve only been using KiSSFLOW for, I think, probably four months. I think we really got into this about two months after I got here, maybe a month. And so, the way KiSSFLOW is designed, and I know you know this, but I’ll say this for your listeners. It’s a catalog of apps and you can build out an app or create a new app that does a function for you, and it’s really cool how it works. We currently, we have five live apps and two in draft. So the five live apps that anybody can get on and they can initiate something. So we have an event process. I’ll talk about that in a second. We have a creative request, we have a check request, we have a paid time off or PTO request, and we have a purchase request.

So the check request, PTO and purchase, those are pretty standard. I’m not really going to talk about them, but those are just…we’ve tied Kissflow to our way we make purchases and give permissions for time off, and do checks. So it can do that. That’s a really exciting thing that I love, that I’m discovering about KiSSFLOW, is how we can so automate and simplify everything even down to the events. So when I click on the event process app, and I programmed this just a few weeks ago.

The problem with the way most events go is: let’s say you’re going to have a men’s event on a Monday night in March, okay? And you’re charged with, you’re going to be the one that puts on this event. Well, if there’s no system and no process, then it’s going to either rely on you and the volunteers that you can recruit, or the work that you can dump up on other staff, or the people that you can get to get behind it, or just, you’re just going to make it happen. But if you’re removed from the equation, then the event can’t happen. Then there’s the broader questions of: should we even do that event and what’s the win, and how do we know who it’s for? And all these things that typically don’t get properly worked out. So what we’ve done is we, on this app, you go, the way we’ve designed it, you go there, put your name in, you put the ministry area, what you’d like to name the event where you want to event of be. But then we ask questions like: who is the target audience for this event – be as specific as possible? One thing that’s really important for us is we don’t do…we’re a pretty simple organization in terms of, there’s a lot of complexities in the organization, but in terms of what you see as a participant, we try to keep it simple because we’re not a program-driven church, we’re a step-driven church. We want to be lean so people can know their next step, not just attend a program. So we always want to know who is the event for, be as specific as possible, because if you can’t define that, the event can’t be a success.

What’s the purpose of the event? How does this event fit within our vision and mission? So, we ask all these qualifying questions and then from there, what’s it going to cost? What’s going to cost in terms of staff and volunteers? Who’s going to be have to be involved for implementation? And the cool thing about KiSSFLOW is, you can populate these answers with writing the list in, you can make a drop down menu, you can select from the people that are on staff at your church. And so you can really drill down and make it as intense you want. And then from there, the great part about it is it initiates a workflow where, whoever wants to do an event, they go in, they put all that information on and then we tell it exactly what to do. So from there, it’s going to go to that person’s direct manager for conceptual approval. So that person’s going to look at it. They’re going to say, oh yeah, so Lane wants to do this event for men on a Monday night, and here’s what’s going to happen. And so we’ll decide whether or not that’s good. And that’s a conversation.

If the manager approves it, it initiates another process where an email is sent to our creative director, who is going to then have a pre-event meeting. If it gets to this place where, the events gone through conceptual approval, and then it goes the creative director. And if he signs off on it, then we have to know who’s involved and what’s going to happen. So they have the prevent meeting, and then, it actually kicks them over to the creative request, which I made. If there’s any media, logos, design. Because this happens all the time. And anybody that’s listening that’s ever been a media designer, at a church or a graphic designer, creative director, you know how this goes. You have that last-minute event and the youth pastors come to you, ‘Hey, can you mockup a logo for tonight?’ It’s like, ‘no, I don’t want to…I wish would’ve told me that two weeks ago.’ So the cool thing about this is all of that stuff happens well in advance, because the thing is, if you want something happen, you have to do this.

And this is something I was talking to Neil about, another representative from KiSSFLOW. We were talking about KiSSFLOW. He’s helped me work through some things with it. And he was talking about how a lot of pastors really struggle with getting people to buy into the value of the system and they just won’t use it. And to that, I just say, ‘well, make them.’ I mean, if you’ve got people who are employed and doing a job and you’ve set up systems, then at some point, you just have to look at them and say, this is what’s required and we’re not trying to…we’re not meanies. But this is one of the ways that we guard our culture and ensure that what we’re doing is consistent and done with excellence, which is especially important when you’re trying to scale more campuses.

So anyway, from there, the workflow’s defined, and then it sets into motion what needs to happen. So here’s what’s cool, that just systematizes event processes. The other one I’m building right now is communication requests. Often, people will go to our creative director who also does communication –  a lot of people wear a lot of hats around here. We’re very lean staff for the size church we are, but our creative director is also in charge of communication. And so he’ll get ‘Hey, can you promo this event? Hey, can you put this in the blurb for Sunday? Hey, can can this end up in the announcement video?’ And so he’s always, he’s constantly having to juggle people’s requests, and KiSSFLOW is just a way to automate that system. So, they don’t go to him. They go to the system. And this app is actually in draft because I’m building it. But once it’s built, they’ll be able to go to there and put in exactly what they want. They’ll be able to check off the things. They’ll be able to write a blurb. And then the process cues just keep it going.

So nothing ever gets lost or missed because KiSSFLOW just pushes it through to the people that you tell it to push it through to. And I’ll tell you about one more, and I’m really excited about this, because this directly affects me, often, is the employee onboarding app. So our onboarding system, since I’ve been here, I’ve onboarded three employees, and we’re about to do a fourth, and our system was a Google Doc checklist that we would share between me and whoever the supervisor was, and a couple of other key people. And so we’re having to go onto this list and look at it and make sure that we’ve got all the forms filled out and the person has been onboarded and there’ve been to orientation, all this stuff. Big, huge pain because.. and also, not reliable. Why? Because it relies on a person, right? I have to go check it. The manager has to go check it. So you have a couple of busy days and you get caught up in the whirlwind of everything you do. And before you know it, you’re going, oh my gosh, did we get the forms we needed? Did we get this signed? And it just becomes another headache. So the cool thing about the employee onboard, same exact process I walked you through earlier. Any employee we bring on, I can go on and initiate the process, and then that begins everything we need to get to that employee, and from that employee, and for that employee is all automated. And the people who have a stake in it are notified, and they’ll be able to perform the task and then report that they’ve done it, and we’ll have a record and what we need. And then it makes the new employee feel like, ‘hey, they’re glad I’m here. They had a place for me.’ Instead of, ‘these people don’t know what they’re doing.’ So that’s in a nutshell how we’ve utilized it so far.


Oh, that’s great. And you know, that last point that you made about someone coming in and saying, ‘Oh, they’ve got a place for me. They were prepared for me.’ I think the, kind of irony of it all is, sometimes people think of automation as very impersonal and discounting the human element. When used properly, it actually values the human element and gives more time and space to really spend time on the really important things.

Well what’s cool, and I think the point is, the new employee won’t know that we have a backend system doing this. They’ll get an email that looks like it’s from me saying, ‘Hey, so great to have you on staff. Really excited about you being here. I need you to sign these four forms and get them back to me by whatever time.’ And so it has that personal touch. I mean me, the supervisor knows. And then once they’re here, they’ll be oriented and know that we’re using systems. But yeah, I totally agree with you. Because the thing is for me, I think of it this way. I automate everything that’s important to me. So my mortgage payment, my ties to the church, my utility bills, those are all automated. Not because they’re not important, because I don’t want to miss them. Those are important enough to me to automate, because they’re important. So I look at any system, if it’s important and our organization depends on it, then why wouldn’t we? And so, anyway…but I’m not really a feeler, so I probably should be around people who know maybe some of the people on staff can tell me what people feel when they get an automated system. But I’ve never been offended by it, I’ve always appreciated it because it tells me that there’s efficiency and there’s a system and there’s thought. There’s something thoughtful going on here. And that’s a huge value for me. And I think it’s needed much more in the church world. Because if you think about it, the people who attend your church, especially if you live in a professional environment. Like, I was in the DC area for 10 years. Everybody is a professional. Everybody’s the best in the world at what they do. And then they come to church and they go, ‘Oh, gosh, you guys are way behind. Things are on paper when they really shouldn’t be. There’s not really a system for anything, and it just feels really thrown together and haphazard’ that can really affect your mission. So for me, it’s a mission-critical thing to make sure that we have really, really efficient systems, because a Sunday should never suffer because of a human error, or whatever. A Sunday should never suffer because there’s a proper system that’s being followed.


Now that’s great. And something I hear a lot from, especially from Executive Pastors, is just having that question of: we’re not sure at what point we need to do this. Like right now, things like Google Docs or just kind of the, ‘drop by someone’s office,’ is working for us. What would you say to that? I guess, at what point do you see it being a wise move to start automating processes and move away from the more traditional model of office administration in the church?

Yesterday. I mean to me, it’s not even a question. I understand the reluctance to use a new tool. Because there is a learning curve. And so, with any new tool you’re going to have to figure out, what’s the language of this, and how do I make sense of it, and all that. So that could be where somebody just says, okay, we’ve got too many things going on, and too many irons in the fire, and so we’ll get to that later. But, if I can push back on that, what I would say is: all those other things that you’re working on, that you feel like are really important, you would be better at them and you would be better served and you’d have a better end product if you systematized some of the things that you’re doing manually right. I mean, imagine if somebody said, ‘I know that having a dishwasher in my house would..you know, people say they’re great, but I’m going to have to load it, put soap in and turn it on and wait for it to finish. I just think it’s better for me to stand at my sink and scrub my dishes every night.’ You would look at that person and say, ‘Yeah, but you’re really missing out on a pretty neat technology from a 100 years ago,’ and it would be crazy. But when it comes to this stuff, it’s like, ‘Yeah, I just think paper or Google Docs or some kind of manual system. I’m just more comfortable with that.’ It’s like, okay, if you want to stand and scrub your dishes, that’s fine. But other people are going to put their dishes in the dishwasher and go watch Netflix. So your choice to me, it’s a choice multiplier because it frees up time to then focus on other things. And I think it helps you as a church and as a staff to operate, on the leaner staff, a tighter staff, with less overhead because there’s more things that are systematized and less things that are dependent on just ‘is Tyler here, so I can go to his office?’ There’s a place for that. I mean, when you’re conceptualizing an idea, yeah, you got to go and you got to do the inperson stuff. But when it comes to just how you, day-to-day, week-to-week operate the systems of your church, whether it’s from kid’s ministry, to worship and production, to first impressions, to how you move people through discipleship process. As automated as you can get, the quicker you can get. I just don’t think there’s an argument against it. At least I haven’t been convinced.


Now that’s great. And I’m going to completely change track here, because aside from being obviously a very systems-oriented guy, you’re doing something kind of cool. You’ve got a blog and a podcast of your own. Would you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah, so I have a blog called PreachingDonkey.com, and it’s designed for pastors who preach and who want to communicate better. So a little history on that, even though I’m an executive guy now, I have a passion for preaching. I love to preach, I love helping preachers. And so when I was in college, I was a Communications major and learned how to communicate and connect with people. And then I went to seminary and I learned how to bore everyone with The Bible. And I thought, ‘ Gosh, there’s got to be a better way.’ And so I started writing down some of my ideas and really, just frustrations with the way content was delivered. And here’s the best way I can categorize this. I feel like most preachers, when they walk away from a sermon, they ask themselves, ‘Did I say all of the words that I needed to say?’ Which is not the right question to ask. The better question is, ‘Did they hear what they needed to hear so they can do something with it?’ Those are two totally different questions. The second question is listener-oriented. The first one’s about me. So the first question is, did I do what I needed to do? The second question is, did my listener, did I actually connect with and communicate with a heart and a mind? It’s God who changes lives, but he uses me. So was I a good vessel today? That’s the question. So I started writing these ideas down in a podcast, and I have a book called ‘Preaching Killer Sermons.’ You can check it out on Amazon. And it’s just been fun. It’s been a fun journey, but I’m about to re-engage with that. With the year we’ve had, I’ve have to let that sit for a little bit, but I’m going to get back into it. I’ve written several posts that I’m about to publish. But yeah, so that’s what that is. And you can check that out at PreachingDonkey.com.


That’s great. So do you get a chance to preach very much in your position right now?

Yeah, yeah. I’ve preached in September, October and November, and we’ll schedule some more out for this year once we get some time to do that. But I preach once a month, or once every other month, something like that. Not as much as I was doing it at the last church I was at. But the nature of my work that I do here is a lot more systems and operations-oriented. And so I’m really trying to focus on this machine, and really trying to get a handle on that. And so not doing that as much as I used to, but I still have a passion for helping pastors get better. And I’m not, definitely don’t tell myself as an expert or anything like that. I just love…I love the ideas and I love to experiment with what works, and I love to guide people along on a journey to improve their preaching, because a lot of people are looking for resources and help. And so that’s what I try to provide.


That’s great. So Lane, I want to end with this: What encouragement would you give to others in church leadership?


Okay, so here’s the encouragement I would give to you. It is a difficult thing to do to be in the church world, in the church context, but you’re the business guy and a lot of guys and gals that are Executive Pastors come from the corporate world. So they know that world, and they step into the church world and they’re like, this is so different. And a lot of times they can be seen as outsiders, you know – ‘the other’ and the pastor types are looking at them going, ‘You just need to love people more and be softer-hearted or whatever, or be a little bit more lax.’ Whatever the case may be. So, it can be a very discouraging and kind of lonely role, and that’s how a lot of pastor roles are. But the Executive Pastor role is unique. And there’s also the other thing about being an Executive Pastor, that a lot of people face, is the undefined nature of parts of your role. So it can be hard to know when you’ve won as an Executive Pastor. To say, okay, I’m winning. I’m exactly what I need to be for my lead pastor. I’m doing what he would do, so he can do it only he can do. Sometimes that’s hard to define. So what I would say is don’t lose heart. What you do is so important and nobody’s going to understand it. Your creative types at your church, and your youth pastor or whatever. And I’ve done all those jobs. They’re not going to fully understand and appreciate what you’re doing. That’s okay. But you keep the lights on and you keep the lawyers away, and you keep people from ??? and going to jail, and the church from being owned by the bank. And so I would say, take heart and utilize every tool you can. And at the end of the day, you just have to do the best you can and give the rest up to the Lord, because He is the one who grows His church. And the cool thing is, we just get to be a part of it. So that would be my encouragement.


Now that’s fantastic Lane, thanks so much for being on the podcast today.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

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